A Discussion with the Director of DubGrips: Karsten Walker

For a change of pace, we decided to add a slightly different flavor for our next interview. Rather than talk exclusively about climbing, we decided to talk to our close friend and founder of DubGrips - Karsten Walker. For those of you who’ve been living under a rock, DubGrips is an up-and-coming wooden climbing hold business that has taken off during the pandemic. You can find more about Karsten and DubGrips via his Instagram or online shop.

Karsten is not only a hold making guru, but also full time data scientist and overall crusher. He recently ticked his first outdoor 8a/V11 (Nazgul) and is only trending upwards. In this interview, we delve into his hold making business, training, and future plans.

How did you get into making climbing holds? Did the pandemic spur it on? How did it grow?

I used to do a lot of metal and woodworking growing up and always wanted a creative hobby, but I am just not good at art and don’t have patience for improving. I started making holds due to pandemic boredom and it turned out they weren’t half bad and it sorta came naturally. I realized that most holds are the same basic few shapes and just started tinkering with a dremel and an orbital sander.

Eventually all the hold companies had supply issues and all my friends were building home walls so I gave people some really crude early prototypes and got pretty solid feedback, which just told me that my thought process about how I shape holds at least makes sense. After I got a bandsaw and bench sander I was able to make things quicker and make more nuanced shapes and I kept getting feedback and eventually friends started giving me money for them. Then those friends told other friends and it kind of snowballed from there.

The growth was pretty organic. I do have an Instagram account and some merch, but I don’t really do any sort of targeted advertising or promotion. I’ve sent people some free stuff just to get holds in different parts of the world, but that’s about it. I have tried paid promotions and always seem to get random followers that don’t actually climb.

What is unique about your products? Why do you think DubGrips stands out among other climbing hold companies?

• The type of wood(s) that I use. Most wood hold companies use Poplar because it is cheap, easy to work with, but I low-key despise it. It is prone to expansion and contraction with temperature changes and tends to weather poorly and can develop stress cracks. If you don’t use screw cups then you will eventually pull screws in really deep. Living in the Bay we deal with fairly large temp swings even indoors as garages are not fully sealed usually. I mostly use Sapele (often used in outdoor furniture), Ash, Maple, some Cherry, and Brazilian Teak. I have had Poplar holds from all the big companies develop cracks or even spontaneously snap in half due to expansion and contraction.

• I try to make unique shapes that are comfy and difficult at the same time. None of my holds will roll your skin, tweak a joint, or hurt to climb on. At the same time I have some ways of tweaking the hold radius and angle to make things pretty challenging even with larger footprints. Some of my bigger holds are my hardest.

• I design shapes more around biomechanics rather than measurements. I’ve paid a lot of attention to finger position on specific types of holds on rock and try to reproduce that position however I can. It’s not hard to make sharp, small holds, but it’s not really fun climbing on them and lots of companies make them. If I make something small it is for a reason.

• I’m able to work with a customer to make a hold set specific to their wall, abilities, and how they want things to climb. Some companies say they do that, but in my experience that’s kinda bullshit. I’ve been quite disappointed with custom hold sets that I’ve gotten and since I’m not doing this for a living then I don’t have to worry about volume or profit.  I have had really great feedback with customers on my approach so I think it is working pretty well.

• If you do not like a hold I will make a replacement for free and pay for the shipping. I don’t know companies that will do this with used holds. Beastmaker says they do, but try shipping a box of hold back to the UK at your own cost. Suddenly your $7 edge is a $20 edge.

  This is NOT to my advantage, but I make holds from standard stock, not templates. It is much more efficient to but large discs or blocs and then cut again and apply a basic edge profile, but it makes things standardized in a way. I think what makes my holds climb a bit different is that I can get really nuanced with how I create the initial shape. I think my simplest holds have at least 5 different initial cuts at at least 3 angles. Some of my more complicated (to make) holds might have 4 different cut angles on just the edge! Once sanded you get a really unique, organic profile.

• People don’t put my holds in the closet. This should say a lot.

For each of these hold types, what do you think are the key characteristics that other manufacturers often lack:

1. Crimp

• A lot of crimps on rock are shaped like point and you cannot get all fingers on to the same depth. Lots of commercial crimps tend to just be a flat incut so you don’t really train positions where you effectively drop a finger or really have to dig in behind a hold. My crimps feel non-tweaky to train on, whereas some wood crimps I have bought have profiles that just feel sketchy when you bear down.

• I don’t think crimps should be heinous on the skin. A good board crimp should be hard, but something you can climb on many times during a training week.

• I think edge size can be sorta irrelevant. People want small but do not realize that small doesn’t necessarily mean hard. I like to make holds that have a big radius and bigger footprint, but really make you get behind the hold. I don’t like selling incut tiny edges as crimps and too many holds are like this. Ignore the front part of the hold when buying a crimp, what you need to focus is the radius behind the midline.

• Crimps tend to be small targets and should have a minimal footprint. This can get tricky so sometimes you actually want to think the other way and look for crimps that have a larger footprint, but no room for cheating. The Decoy Simple Crimps really nail this. I can’t pinch any of the hold with my thumb, they have a big radius that you have to get behind, and they don’t suck to train on day in and day out.

2. Edge

This link goes over how I design some of my edges

• Radius. This is huge. Most companies just use a router or do some light rounding. First, this creates a sharp edge that is prone to roll skin. Second, if the edge is too sharp you end up just crimping it and can’t drag it or half crimp really.

• I tend to cut the front of the hold to create the edge then sand it with a bench sander and an orbital. The result is a really natural looking and feeling radius.

• I tend to eliminate thumb catches you can cheat with. You do not really build finger strength as well if you just pinch everything on a board. This is my number one complaint about a lot of wood edges that are basically a half circle with an angled cut- you can just thumb pinch the point on each outer side.

• A really awesome edge should allow for several grip positions. I have a lot of edges that I can really passively hang from sort of like a sloping edge that you see on a lot of sandstone and granite. You should have to crimp all your edges, then you could just buy more crimps.
  Frankly I think being able to do tweaky matches on edges is often a party trick that doesn’t transfer so I eliminate this potential.
  Lastly, let’s see less flat edges. A lot of edges on a rock are not flat. You should need to find a sweet spot depending on how you are getting to and departing from the hold.

3. Sloper (I asked him to go into depth on this one!)

• I actually have a decent IG story saved about this. Most board slopers just end up as jugs or rely on friction. A good sloper should require you to really use your shoulder to stabilize and also utilize a lot of wrist strength. You can use your thumb, but not on the underside and not to engage it as a jug. You want a decent amount of surface area with a slight bump because wood hold friction will never be what rock friction is, but you want the fingers to exert the same force pattern in the same position.

4. Narrow pinch

If you look at the finger position of a narrow crimp it is basically a full crimp with a thumb. I like to make narrow pinches a bit deeper so that you end up with more of a half crimp position OR make some more unique shapes rather than just a rectangle. Most things you can pinch on rock use a thumb that is a different angle than the fingers or might be kind of sloping and requires you to press your thumb in.

5. Wide pinch

For these it is mostly about a fatty radius that is super comfy and building a shape that requires a really hard squeeze. I think wide pinches can be really different in terms of how they climb so I have ones that are basically an open hand with the fingers and others that are more of a dome shape. Most importantly, anything with a big footprint should be effective at almost any orientation.

If you were to recommend 3 other hold companies outside of your own, who would you recommend and why?

This question is hard because a lot of Euro companies don’t ship to the US. I really like specific hold sets more than hold companies, but for wood holds Beastmaker is pretty hard to beat. A lot of their classic shapes are classic for a reason and are interesting to climb on. Decoy makes cool resin holds. Their simple crimps are pretty rad and also really comfortable. I also like their Beak pinches and some of their newer sets look rad. Their new board seems like it could be pretty sweet too. I also think Kilter makes really well textured and well shaped resin holds. If we made this list only wood I would say Beastmaker, Powerholz makes some really rad looking shapes and gorgeous holds that are almost art pieces, and I like the way a lot of Hardwood Holds shapes look but I haven’t climbed on them.

What 3 climbing holding companies would you NOT recommend and why.

I think everyone knows the one board in the gym no one uses that always has holds crack and tends to be overpriced. Aside from that I can’t say much else for fear of libel suits or something, but a lot of the “old school” companies that use really rough resin are pure trash and like 80% of resin shapes are really more aimed at gyms so they can hand select a specific hold for a climb and not the home wall user that needs every hold in the set to be what they want.

When you look at a hold set be honest with how much of the set you want to use. I think most resin sets are 25%+ stuff I wouldn’t prefer to set and that drives the cost of each hold much higher. Some of the old school resin hold companies tend to have holds that warp. I also think the customer should never have to drill their own set screws into holds.

What is the climbing hold market like? How do you sell yourself (via social media, word-of-mouth, etc.)? What are the complexities of competing against the existing companies?

• It’s pretty hard if you don’t make resin holds and don’t sell to gyms. A lot of people buy stuff that looks pretty or has some kind of clout behind it (brand recognition, heavy promotion, etc). The pandemic has spurred a lot of smaller companies like myself that tend to be a lot more social media savvy, but their shapes are really similar. It’s made it harder for people who might not be hold nerds to actually differentiate companies from one another. In a lot of cases I have sold holds because people have seen them on so-and-so’s board so name recognition amongst accepted crushers. People think that if a strong person climbs on a hold then it’s somehow more legitimate.

• Social media is the game. I am constantly battling the algorithm haha. I am not one to massively spam people or ask my friends to constantly repost my content, but you have to. I used to get annoyed seeing specific climbing personalities constantly self-promoting, but that’s how you grow and get a market.
  People are often stoked but don’t often buy things. I love the excitement and support, but people aren’t just out there buying holds every season or randomly making impulse purchases. I have moved away from stocking single items and primarily doing custom orders because most people tend to want something very specific to fill a niche and they tend to want a decent amount.

• Once you have supporters they are really loyal. I think all but two of my customers have made more than 1 order and I now have 4 or 5 complete home walls out there. I am super grateful that people have given me a chance, but the battle is getting people to give you a chance. There are so many options that you never know how something will pan out and people tend to be risk-averse when buying holds with good reason.

• Volume. It’s hard to have a webstore with a full range of in stock products when I make everything by hand and don’t use routed edges or things that can dramatically increase speed. Frankly, I have no real interest in sacrificing how I want to make holds in order to just put more out there. At the same time it reduces profit and brand proliferation.

• American gyms are not used to good wood holds and they do not demand them. Europeans get it. They know that wood training walls are much more comfortable to climb on and are better for training a lot of aspects of climbing such as contact strength. Only one American company makes wood holds that gyms buy and it’s because their board has a standardized app and those holds tend to emphasize symmetry and reproducibility over nuance. It’s not a bad thing, it totally makes sense, but American gyms seem to be scared to set spray walls with wood holds. They just bolt on shitty surplus resin holds. There is no logic to this. A well made wood hold can last just as long as a lot of resin holds.

I know you delved head-first into board climbing by building your own wall, holds, etc. during the pandemic and saw great gains. How has board climbing evolved your style?

Well, I am a shit ton stronger haha. It’s helped me focus entirely on what feels hard for me and not what someone else tells me is easy or hard. It is much easier to control what I train. I can also revisit benchmark climbs in the future to see improvement and I can really project things long term since it doesn’t get reset. I’ve developed a lot more shoulder strength and general movement awareness and stronger in a lot of positions that I wasn’t before. My snap has improved a lot and I’m better at figuring out moves.
I think I use momentum and timing better and have more of a binary response to beta. I know more about what will and won’t work and do not chase things that are low percentage. One downside is that I tend to prefer dynamic movement when perhaps locking off might be better beta. I find that I tend to not get as close to the rock as I should when I have a period of climbing less outdoors.
I climb a lot better with 3 points of contact, which seems to be a feature of the grade range that would summarize my max abilities.
I stopped focusing on grades. All of my board climbs are graded on a 1-10 scale of RPE. I’m sure some are baby soft and some are stupid hard, but it all averages out.
No wasted junk miles. I think a lot of boulderers do way too much junk be it warming up, juggy gym climbing that doesn’t transfer, or just doing too many moves per session. I have actually tracked and kept notes and a board session for me is almost 1:1 with an outdoor session in terms of volume and RPE. The quality is really, really high and I tend to be much more efficient with how I attempt problems.

What do most commercial boards get wrong? If you were to manufacture a board how would it be different from the Tension, Kilter, and Moonboard?

I actually like elements of all the boards, but here are my complaints about each:

Moonboard:

No dedicated feet and some of the benchmarks end up with repetitive movement. Lots of the holds climb the same and are too similar in style. There’s tons of blocky pinches, but very few genuine sidepulls or underclings. I’ve also not climbed on the 2019 set so maybe they changed a few complaints. I find a lot of the holds a bit too blocky and not really specific to rock, mostly some of the bigger white and black pinches. I don’t find most of the black crimps to be bad, just a bit sharp and uncomfortable and I am pretty good at using my skin to grip if that makes sense so they aren’t difficult for me. The yellows can be weird and tweaky in certain positions but I argue that is more about one’s readiness to use a funky grip.

Kilter:

Too many garbage problems so it is confusing to even find good climbs other than just going by most repeats. I think it’s pretty cool, but there are massive “dead zones” on the board in terms of hold types. All the underclings are basically jugs and so are the slopers until you really drop the angle. Not many horizontal pinches and I think a lot of the shapes end up really similar to one another. I think sometimes density can make it pretty hard to choose all of these things. The adjustability is great for gyms, but creates way too many problem variants. I don’t find much use in doing the same problem at varying angles and it seems that in my grade range a lot of movement is just massive moves off massive holds that is pretty fun, but something I personally don’t find very specific. I don’t really care about symmetry, which is more of an opinion than anything. For me personally the holds are either really good or really horrible and the shapes are really generic. I get why- it’s really hard to make a standardized wood hold set within tolerance, but at the same time it doesn’t showcase the nuances of great wood holds enough. I love that they have so many layouts, but I also kinda think this can be a downfall.

Tension:

I think lots of the edges and crimps allow too much thumb cheating. I find that there is enough variance in the hold finishing that sometimes holds can be fairly sharp from a tight radius and they can roll skin more than I would like for wood. This is an opinion as I prefer the Beastmaker style of large edge radii. The symmetry seems to create a lack of ingenuity and variety in setting, but at the same time that is something people like about it and what makes it more systems-wall style training focused. I like the feet, but think there is a bit too much foot density at the bottom of the board. Lastly, the holds all tend to be set at very ergonomic angles in 45 degree increments. Sometimes I feel a board needs something set at like 74 degrees to really bring the funk.

I am not a fan of kickers. Rocks rarely ever have a flat vertical section at the bottom and a lot of times you can ride the kicker for the first few moves and there isn’t much tension. This is true mostly on the Moon for me as I am fairly tall. Less so with the Kilter, which has a lot of smeary feet but those tend to just rely on friction. A spacer is great and I know you can set climbs without the kicker on, but I figure you might as well standardize using one without it.

I think given those comments above I would want to see low density, dedicated feet;  a couple boards at fixed angles, no kicker, asymmetric setting with a high variety of hold but not too much density, and a focus on smoother resin or wood holds with big radii that do not rely on friction.

Personally I think a brand would do well having a board in the 20-25 degree range that focuses much more on larger balance-y holds with a smattering of awful edges and crimps as well as bigger more friendly holds for beginners. This board would make it usable for circuits, beginners focusing on specific types of movements, and high-end climbing that is similar to off vert where you are really maintaining a long time under tension on bad holds. The feet would mostly be disc or dome shaped with some smaller rounded edges thrown in

Another board in the 40-50 degree range would likely be similar to the wood hold boards you see often in the UK. Medium-high density, low density feet, and holds that really require true contact strength (basically all wood or smooth resin). I prefer lower foot density and open feet as it simplifies setting, but also you often do not have a foot option that is really ergonomic. Just like rocks. Some people might have a great foot, some won’t, and it might alter the grade a bit but that’s also how rocks work. I wouldn’t include lights because they can be a pain with multiple people session-ing at once and beta memorization is a really important skill. At this point developing an app seems to carry risks and high costs so I would rely on people using a third party app such as Retro Flash.

I know you recently became a father and are a full time Data Scientist. How do you balance training, climbing, and hold-manufacturing?

I don’t feel like I do when it’s all happening. My wife and I started dating when I raced bikes and we have been together for 12 years so she is very supportive of giving me some time to train around our work and life schedule. We tend to figure out things a week ahead of time and then just block the time off and that’s what we get to do our various activities. I just don’t waste time training and have to be pretty methodical about how I use the time I have. I am older so this works to my advantage as recovery is more of a limiter. I’m lucky to have really strong fingers so I don’t do much hangboarding these days so I can just fit in a board session in 1.5hrs and it’s really effective and useful.

I find that I mostly have to allow myself some space, whether it be just to train during the workday or go on a project siege. I think when you get time crunched things can become a big optimization game or you get training/experience FOMO, but letting go of restrictions creates a much better mental balance. When I focus on climbing too much then I tend to dwell on it and other areas of my life suffer. It also doesn’t help. So, for my personality at least, having to balance things makes each area better off.

As for hold manufacturing it can be tough. I use my hands a lot and I find that it can take a lot out of me if I am not careful. At the same time constant climbing tends to influence things I want to make or ways to improve my holds better. Some days I’m just plain tired and don’t want to go sand a bunch of shit, but if it’s for a customer I do it anyways and I am always glad that I did. The same goes for my indoor and outdoor sessions. I spent a month driving to Tahoe at night, waking up at sunrise and climbing, then leaving so I could be home by the time my son is out of childcare. It was pretty heinous at times and I spent a hell of a lot of time driving with surprisingly little time climbing, but I was always glad that I made the effort and went. In the past I would think that a bad climbing day was a waste, but now I tend to think that the only waste is the time I spend at home having not gone.

Do you see hold manufacturing ever becoming your full-time gig? Would you drop your current career if it provided enough?

I don’t know if it could ever be full time unless I made other products. The math just isn’t there. If I were to make $9 profit on a $10 hold (not at all what I make now when you include labor), then I have to sell over 5,500 holds per year to make $50k and feel like I am still somewhat supporting my family. We would have to move to a much cheaper place to live, which could come at a consequence to my wife’s happiness. Given that American gyms are loathe to buy wood holds that are not on a standardized board I just can’t see that many home walls wanting that many holds. The COVID wall boom seems to be over and frankly not that many people really care or know about the advantages of wood holds. I would for sure have to make other wood products to supplement my income and probably do some kind of part time work.

Another thing to consider is that you don’t really get time off with this setup. You can’t just dip out away from your workshop and shipping center for a month without sacrificing a large chunk of income.

Absolutely [I would]. I consider myself very lucky to have the job that I do, but let’s be honest it would be pretty badass to be in a woodshop constantly tinkering and refining my skills. There are very few careers where you have complete creative control over the vision of your work and being able to make your own schedule and work from where you want is “the dream”. I think that I would likely find something else cool to make out of wood or metal and continue that pattern indefinitely.

How do you see your growth trajectory in climbing? What are your short/long term goals in climbing?

As for my growth trajectory I don’t really know honestly. Some days I feel like I’m not progressing and others I am really happy with the things I have done, places I have been, and people that I have met. So far I feel I have progressed each year for the 4 years I have been climbing but know that it will get smaller and smaller as time goes on and I’m only getting older.

Short term I need to work on specific elements of technique and power that are going to be requirements for pushing my grade pyramid upward. It’s easy for me to get hyper focused and then only do one specific thing or chase one specific goal so a big short term goal is to be more balanced. I am also pretty harsh on myself, which doesn’t help either. I am working a lot on remaining in the present and focusing on what’s in front of me when I am outside and leaving it outside when I am done.

I think most of my goals are mental. As someone that has been diagnosed as being on the Autism Spectrum and having OCD, simply climbing and letting go of things can be a huge challenge. I can get hyper-focused and hyper-optimized, which can push my climbing in a negative direction. I always remind myself that when I started climbing I never even thought I would climb the grades that I have flashed now, so I am already doing really well. I have burned out of several sports hard enough to know that I don’t want to do that again so maintaining positivity and balance are essential to me potentially doing this sport with my son 15 years from now.

Also, I have dealt with disordered eating for 18 years of my life. It’s no secret that this type of stuff is present in climbing, but when I hear stories of people cutting weight for 2 to 3 years I often think there are aspects tied to self-worth, self-image, and depression that are completely left out. My big goal is to consistently make progress in this regard. To feel good about who I am rather than seeing a photo or video and coming up with criteria for being sub-par.

Long term it would be amazing to be able to consistently climb 8A in a short timeframe. My rationale is that most of the amazing boulders on earth are somewhere in the 7B to 8A range so it would allow me to travel and climb awesome shit indefinitely. I could go on a 2 week trip with the family, find some cool upper-end climbs as short term projects to satisfy my problem solving focus and spend the rest of my time just rampaging on classics. I would never, ever run out of amazing things to climb and if I did maybe I would look towards development or some other form of challenge.

Lastly, I would like to eventually expose my son to climbing in a balanced way that encourages him to organically seek out the sport. I would rather my son climb V8 and mix climbing with other interests than climb V16 and become a one-dimensional person. I want him to say “Dad let’s go bouldering” than me having to goad him into things.

Thanks again for the interview Karsten and don’t forget to check out his Instagram and online shop!